Why Leaving Corporate with Chronic Illness Feels So Scary (and What Helps) | Liz Carmines

Thinking about leaving your 9–5, but chronic illness makes it feel impossible?

In this honest and empowering episode, I sit down with Liz Carmines—business owner and social media strategist—who shares her personal journey of navigating pain, brain fog, and burnout while working in corporate…and how she knew it was time to leap into full-time entrepreneurship.

We talk about the guilt of “not doing enough,” the emotional cost of looking fine when you're not, and the surprising things that made the transition feel safer and more doable.

If you’ve ever asked yourself, “What happens if my health flares up and I can’t keep going?” or “Can I really run a business with this body?” — this conversation is for you.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why corporate flexibility isn’t always enough when you’re in pain
• How chronic illness shapes our fears around financial and emotional stability
• What to do before quitting to transition smoother
• A way to structure your business for peace of mind, not just profit
• The healing power of agency, boundaries, and building a team early
• Mindset shifts that help when fear or impostor syndrome creeps in
• What to consider now if you want to leave your job later

Whether you’re side hustling with limited energy, stuck in guilt loops at work, or just craving more freedom on your terms, this episode will make you feel seen and supported.

Transcript

Nikita: 0:00

This episode is for the woman who's listening while sitting in her car after work or scrolling job boards on LinkedIn while managing pain flares. Wondering, is this really it? Is this what I have to settle for just because my body is unpredictable? If you have ever wanted to leave your nine to five but felt like it was too risky, especially with your health, you're not alone. This episode is for you. I'm talking with Liz Carmines, a business owner and a chronic illness warrior who made the leap from corporate to running her own business while navigating pain, brain fog, and all the emotional weight that comes with trying to stay fine at work when you're anything, but we're actually talking about what that might look like for you, but also what it looked like for her. We talk honestly about the fear of leaving a job with benefits, how guilt shows up when you're trying to keep it together, and what it actually looks like to build a business that supports you, not drains you. So if you've been asking, what if I can't keep this up, or what if I finally choose myself and it still doesn't work? This is the reason why you need to keep listening, take a breath, and know that you're not crazy, you're courageous, you're hopeful, and you're allowed to want more. So let's dig in.

Nikita's voice: 1:38

Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the Globally Ranked podcast for women living with chronic illness who want to start and grow a business online. I'm your host, Nikita Williams and I went from living a normal life to all of a sudden being in constant pain with no answers to being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses. And trying to make a livable income. I faced the challenge of adapting traditional business advice to fit my unique circumstances with chronic illness, feeling frustrated and more burned out than I already was while managing my chronic illness to becoming an award-winning coach with a flexible, sustainable online coaching business. I found the surprisingly simple steps to starting growing a profitable business without compromising my health or my peace. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to create a thriving business that aligns with your lifestyle and wellbeing, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for women with chronic illness and how we make a living. This is business with chronic illness. Well, I am really excited about this episode because we're gonna be talking about. Rain fog and pain and doing that when you're trying to start a business or transition from your bus, like from your full-time life of your job into a business. And I haven't really had a, a guest on the show talking about this. I've talked about my own journey. I've talked about just how I've seen it happen with my clients, but I thought would be nice to have this chat with our, our Liz Welcome. Liz, welcome. Hi.

Liz Carmines: 3:18

Thank you for having me.

Nikita's voice: 3:20

And she is an amazing business owner. But before we get into a little bit about her introduction, I'd love to chat with you to hear about how did, like being in a full-time job or in a, in a, like a, in a corporate environment or whatever type of environment affect living with pain and when was the, the choice of being like, I need to start my own business. Like when did that happen for you? I.

Liz Carmines: 3:45

Yeah, so I had a full-time job working at a large nonprofit, so it was kind of like corporate nonprofit, so to say. I was super fortunate because I had a pretty flexible work life and work schedule in that they were the type of organization that were like, we were supposed to be online, right? Like we, we had our hours and things, but they weren't like, oh, you were gone for an hour. Where were you? You know, it wasn't that type of environment, so. In a way, I felt like I had a lot of flexibility, but I also had a lot of guilt. And so during this, I worked at this job for a year. And I was also working, starting to build my business on the side. I had a few freelance clients on the side, and at the time I was really going through this journey of trying to like get some answers about my health. Spoiler alert. I never really got them, but I was going, I was going to different doctors. That would take me a while, right? So like I would be gone for like. Half of the day, sometimes. I remember there's this, I was living outside of Washington DC There was this one doctor I wanted to go to and I took a bus, I took the train, I took another bus to get there. So it was like an hour to get there. You know, this hour and a half long appointment, an hour back. And of course these doctors are like, you have to go during the daytime, Monday through Friday, and. I just remember feeling a lot of guilt about it and also the emotional burden of all of that was really, really challenging at the time. The nonprofit also, I felt like I had this big emotional burden because we were a disaster emergency response organization. It was the war in Ukraine was just starting. I was the social media manager, so I was working weekends, I was working evenings. If new information came out about. This war going on. Like I needed to be one of the people that was online. And so I'm kind of dealing both with both of these emotional things at once of my job. And it's like this emotional burden of these stories and telling these stories and the other side of it, of giving all this, getting all this information, spending the time, spending the money, yeah. Trying to figure things out. It was a lot. I would say I'm grateful that I had this flexible environment where no one made me feel bad, but I felt, I felt the corporate guilt. Right? Like even if no one put it on me,

Nikita's voice: 6:00

I have been there. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 6:02

Yeah. And ultimately there were a lot of reasons I decided I. To shift from working the full-time job forever to doing my, my business. Honestly, I wanted the full-time job to be my path. Mm. It felt easier. Like I really, really wanted that to be for me. Mm. You know, the benefits, the healthcare, yeah. All of those things like I wanted it to be for me, but I just realized that like there was this part of me that would never be settled in that environment. I wanted to kind of like spread my wings. I wanted to lead my own life, and I did find it really appealing that. I could, once I went working on my own, that like if there's a day where I'm just struggling, I don't have to force myself to sit at that computer all day and get work done. I can decide this is just gonna be, I'm gonna take the L on this morning and I'm not gonna work. Mm-hmm. That was attractive to me too. Mm-hmm. So that was, there were a lot of reasons, but that was one of the reasons I was like, if I work for myself, if I'm not feeling good one day, I don't have to apologize to anyone. I don't have to explain myself to anyone. I can just take that time and no one will know the difference. So that was part of it for sure.

Nikita's voice: 7:10

Yeah, I mean there's so much part, so, so many parts of those that I can relate to and also that I know lots of the folks listening have experienced or are currently experiencing, right? Especially if they are working for environments. They might be working for a really great company that does, you know, give them that flexibility even though judgment even, you know, I do think those are fewer than many of those, but some of us have those, you know, some of those folks have those jobs and I'm like. Bless you. Bless that. You have that. But I felt the same way. Like when I worked in corporate, it was one of those things where it was the guilt, but it was also like, what are you guys thinking about me? Like that was part of my thought. Like, what are you thinking about me? If you see that I'm not here or that I can't do something or. I'm gone for so many hours because I went to a doctor's appointment. It's like, what are you thinking? I was very concerned at the time before. I know a lot about my mindset work that I did with entrepreneurship, but I was really concerned about that and I didn't want my reputation to be tainted by like I. She's lazy, she just doesn't do anything. I had a lot of those thoughts that were a part of my experience in corporate. And then also I literally, in my corporate job, literally there was like twice that people had to literally take me to the hospital. And that was also like embarrassment and shame and all of these things. Like, I don't know if I can live my life like this. Yeah. So I can relate to like even though, and the company, my company too was pretty decent. It was pretty decent, but it was also like, man, I. I just want more freedom and autonomy of my own time, my own agency, and like you said, if I wanna stay in bed and don't wanna get out, I don't, I, I don't wanna be thinking what are they thinking?

Liz Carmines: 8:50

Yeah, for sure. For me, there was also some of those times where like we would have big team retreats where, you know, we were mostly a remote team and so everyone would fly in and you'd have these like two or three long days in a row in the office where it's kind of like. We are all here for this retreat. You kind of have to be there and we're gonna stay late for dinner. And those were some of my hardest days where I'm just like taking painkillers all day to try to get through it, right? Like I have this headache and I'm like. I just need to lay down right now, but I just have to smile and be so happy to be here. Mm. And that was hard too, and it wasn't that often, but it is. Those things that were like, those were some of my worst times because I just had to push through.

9:32

Yeah.

Liz Carmines: 9:32

For days and days and days. And so I never have to do that anymore. Yeah. And I love that, like that I, I don't have to do that anymore.

Nikita's voice: 9:39

Yeah, it's a hint. Do you think it's the anticipation too, like knowing that those, that time is coming where you do have to quote unquote be on and you don't know if you'll be able to be on without being on like

Liz Carmines: 9:50

Yeah, well, yeah. Especially when you, like I was working hybrid so I would have days in the office, but I could kind of leave whenever I felt like it, you know, I would usually, I would usually stay'cause I would, I would try to be there and like socialize and stuff, but like I knew that if I could leave. Or if I had wanted to leave, I could. And I think it's also just that, like not being used to that, like not being used to having to push through like I was used to being able to like go home and take a nap if I really needed to. Right. Or, or whatever. So yeah, partially, I, I think that was part of it.

Nikita's voice: 10:23

Yeah. So you were saying that you kind of, you kind of transitioned into, were kind of working freelance at the time. Was it within the social with purpose, like mm-hmm. So tell us a little bit about that. So give us a little bit more of like an introduction of like your business where you are now and how did, let's just do that first. Okay. I'm asking too many questions.

Liz Carmines: 10:48

No, you're not asking too many questions. Yeah. Okay. So social purpose came to be. I sort of had like a false

10:54

start

Liz Carmines: 10:55

before I had this full-time job. I, I wanted to start social with purpose, but a co and I started it. I started working with clients. I started taking on some freelance gigs, and about six months in, I just was like, I am not prepared for this responsibility. I wasn't charging enough to live. Mm-hmm. You know, like I was, I wasn't go, I didn't know how to run a business and I was in my early twenties, and so that just felt like. I was like, I just don't have to rush this. So I ended up applying and getting this full-time job and it felt great and I was really excited. Like I said, I was like, well, maybe I don't even need to do social with purpose. Maybe I will just love working in this environment and have a full-time job and that would be my life. And so I actually kind of took a small break from social with purpose. When I started this job, I continued my commitments with some of my clients. But in, in terms of like marketing the business and building the business, I really took a break so I could give the job a fair shake and see is this gonna make me happy? But ultimately, you know, like that desire creeped back in of wanting to do it. So I was super blessed then that I had this runway, like I had this full-time job. I would work on the evenings and weekends, continuing working with clients, and then I also used that time to build my website, do some of those backend business things so that when it came time that I got the itch to just. Go all in. I felt pretty prepared. Mm. Like it was a scary leap, like any leap. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't as scary as the first time around when I literally was just, I had no idea what I was doing. Mm-hmm. So I'm super, super grateful that I gave myself that time and built some things beforehand. Obviously there's still a lot to figure out as you go, but that made the transition a lot easier. And that was. Last March that I left the full-time job. So I've been full-time in my business a little over a year now, and now I'm at this point where I'm kind of like figuring out what's the next level. Mm-hmm. Which is really exciting. I have myself, I have a couple freelancers working with me, which is really fun, and I'm kind of just figuring out how to grow and how to maintain the vision that I've always had and maintain the quality and you know, the relationships with clients and things while continuing to grow.

Nikita's voice: 13:09

Yeah, I love that. Like it's a leap you can have every, this is the thing I think we all think, I think we all think we can have like perfect situation all the way through to make this leap. Like we have everything dialed in and I do think we can do a really good job of preparation. Like so I know like you were just sharing like you kind of had a runway, you kind of prepare some things on the back end. I've even had clients like, you can have a savings account and like you can have all of these things, but like I. Still, it's gonna be scary. Mm-hmm. It still is gonna be scary. Like you will have thoughts about it. I think one of the biggest things that I find for those of living with chronic illness, though, one of the bigger fears is, or pain like and fatigue is like, am I capable of maintaining this? Hmm. Like, am I capable of like, at least with A JOB, right? Like there are some. How do I say this without how, what am I trying to say? Obviously with a job, there are the perks of having a job, especially if you're W nine. There's health insurance, there's FMLA, there's. All this stuff that you can plan for that, that's part of your benefits packages. But when you're like, I wanna start my own business, you get into your business, you're making money, and you're like, it feels like there's no safety net. Mm-hmm. And so the other thoughts come up, right? Am I capable of maintaining this? What did that look like for you when it came to like managing your symptoms or the pain like. What things did you kind of like have to plan for, or did some things come up that you weren't expecting?

Liz Carmines: 14:48

Yeah. Okay. I feel like this is a big question, so I might take this in a lot of different directions. No, go ahead. First of all, I would say that I definitely had the mentality of wanting to be as ready as possible. Mm-hmm. Before I quit my job, right? Mm-hmm. Like I wanted to have the savings and all the things, but it did get to a point where I was burning myself out trying to do both things. So that was my signal that it was time, because I wanted to do both. And do both well, and you just can't do that. Right. So, Ooh, such a good point. I, that was my signal that like, okay, I need to have faith in myself and jump. That doesn't mean it's not terrifying. It's, it was, it has been terrifying and it continues to be terrifying. I have, I have days where I'm like, wow, I feel so good about this. And then I have days where panic. Induces and I'm like, can I do this? And I do think that my health is one of those things. I often have the thought of like, well, what happens if one day I'm just not okay? And that's part of the reason I'm wanting to grow a team. Mm-hmm. Because I myself, if I'm not okay, I want my clients in the business to continue and I wanted, I wanna be able to continue doing great work.

16:02

Mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 16:02

That's part of it. It's like my health. Is pretty stable, but like you just never know what's gonna happen, especially when you're living with a chronic condition. I think, I'm trying to think of like all the, the pieces of your question that I wanted to answer my bad for so

Nikita's voice: 16:18

many parts of it.

Liz Carmines: 16:19

No, no, no, no, you're fine. I, I, I like the question. So in terms of managing it. I think that a couple things. One, the health insurance thing, I've sort of just accepted that it, it sucks and like, yes, no matter what, like I've been on so many different types of health insurance. I've been on alternative cost sharing plans. I've been on these different things and the thing that I've just realized is like, I'm gonna have to budget extra for that. Yes. For paying for things out of pocket. Mm-hmm. And. For me, I really try to prioritize budgeting for care, so

16:55

mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 16:56

Massages, chiropractor, going to those like at least once a month I've started doing acupuncture. Those are all things that I've just realized I have to make sure I budget for and I prioritize. Mm-hmm. Because if I go more than like two weeks without any one of those things, I feel it and I feel it a lot. The other thing, this has been something that's like kind of come up recently is. I've tried to manage pain through more holistic things like acupuncture, massage, and someone recently just said to me like, maybe you should go to a chronic or to a pain pain. Manage a pain management clinic and like see if they can prescribe you something. And I was always hesitant to do that because when I first started my experience with pain when I was in high school, I did get some. Medications given to me that my body didn't respond very well to, and it was not a fun experience. So I've kind of had this thing in my head that like, I don't wanna go down that route because I don't want it to make me feel worse in other ways. Mm-hmm. But the thing that I've realized is like the flare ups will never stop The, the pain will never stop no matter how much wellness and self care and all those things that I do. Like I haven't crashed the code on how to be perfectly fine all of the time. Mm-hmm. And so I'm also trying to open my mind. To, to doing some of those other things. Yeah. And, and just exploring what's options are out there for me, because I also realize that if I'm in pain, if I'm fatigued, if I have brain fog, I can't perform well in my business and like I want to perform well in my business. I want to show up consistently. I want to do all those things. And so I just have to say like, let me put the time and energy into this, even though it's exhausting.

Nikita's voice: 18:35

Yeah, yeah. You know, this is so interesting. It's an interesting thought around like the. Pain management specifically with, I talk about this too, and I think there's, there's mindset, and I'm working on this too with my therapist. Just this thought of, there's almost been this kind of like era of health wellness, of doing it the holistic way. And then if you wanna add like doing it not. Like as a this and versus a this or scenario of like western medicine meets, you know, holistic medicine. Like there's like this weird tribe that's happening and we're gonna get beat up in the corner if we do one or the other, whatever. Right? Like, it just feels like there's a lot of thoughts around this. And when you're running a business and you deal with pain, like yes, the holistic meth methods work. For the most part, they, they do help, but then there are sometimes where there's no amount of breath work, oils, tapping, acupuncture, dry kneeling, that's gonna cut it. Like one of my, my, my functional medicine doctor says like, yeah, sometimes it's like bringing a gun to a a, a ni a bring a knife to a gunfight. Like literally there's not much you can do at that point. And so. We, I think we've all kind of been conditioned depending on how long you've been in this game of entrepreneurship online, and you've seen the world of holistic, taking care of yourself and like eating better and doing all these things, and there's this mind drama around, should I take the medicine? Mm-hmm. Should I go to a pain management specialist? What does that mean about me? I'm not committed to being whole and well, so there's, it's a whole nother side of this journey, right? For sure.

Liz Carmines: 20:21

Yeah, and for me it's like just wanting to explore options and know it's available. And I got pretty burnt out on doing that for a while. So I took a break, like for a while I was going to all the doctors and, and my wallet couldn't do it anymore, and my, my brain couldn't handle it anymore. Yeah, it was too much information. It was too much having to explain my situation again and again and again, and get different responses and it was just. So frustrating. Yeah. Like I had just got to this point where I was like, I cannot go to any doctors right now.

20:50

Mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 20:50

But it, it's kind of like wanting to go back into that process, but maybe not as, as much as I was like mm-hmm. You know, trying to find that balance between like, exploring the options and getting answers while also just accepting that like, I cannot go to every single doctor till I find the answer I'm looking for. Like, I just can't, like they're not gonna have it and I can't. My, my brain can't handle that, so yeah. Yeah. Just trying to like explore without burning myself out again. Yeah. Because I do think a lot of chronic patients get very burnt out on healthcare. Absolutely. Um, just in general. Yeah.

Nikita's voice: 21:26

Yeah, this makes me think of episode 1 63. I think when I talk about like the chronic illness phases, like there are different phases. I feel like identities that we have, I have been there as well around like that burnout, feeling that like just overwhelm, especially when you're first diagnosed. And I would also offer this list just from the context. I don't know if that feeling of burnout and stuff happened like. In the beginning of whatever was going on and you were trying to figure everything out and it just felt like, let me figure everything out or, and now you're kind of past that phase of like figuring everything out, if you will, but knowing like it's kind of there and it just like, I think when we're in that newbie stage of chronic illness, it's. It, it is extremely overwhelming times like 200.

Liz Carmines: 22:14

Yeah.

Nikita's voice: 22:15

But I will offer, going back into like trying to figure it out is actually a lot easier once you've had space in that time. Mm-hmm. To know, like. I'm gonna cap going to three different rheumatologists instead of trying to go to six, like, you know, like I'm gonna cap, like having all of these labs done, I'm gonna figure out a way to like do'em all in one place and like y'all figure it out. Like there's different things we kind of have to like kind of parse out, if you will, sometimes that I have found. Because when we wanna go back into like, how do we manage the pain? Our brains and our body likes to go back to that initial experience and we're like, oh heck no. Like we are never doing that again. And so I have found for myself personally and just also with clients, like they're like, I don't ever wanna go that through again. I'm like, well, let's just use the parts of it that can empower you now.

Liz Carmines: 23:07

Yeah, for sure. And that's definitely something I've had to learn too, is just like setting boundaries like. Around what information and advice I'm willing to accept from people. Yeah, like sometimes the thing that makes me so mad is when I go, especially chiropractors, I go to a chiropractor and they're like, oh, you just have bad posture. I'm like, I'm sure I have bad posture and it doesn't help that I sit at a desk most of the day, but like. Can you not erase over a decade of pain? That's not like I can say that it's a part of it, but it is not the whole thing. And for you to reduce my experience down to this one thing, I will not accept that and I will not come back and see you again. Mm-hmm. And I've just had to learn to like. Really set boundaries and like, not take it personally and just be like, you know what? They don't get it. They're not listening to me and I'm just gonna move on and find someone else who will. Yes. And that's, that's all I want is like what you were saying before is like the two things can be true at once. Situation. Mm-hmm. Where it's like you can do holistic healing and you can also do pharmaceuticals or whatever. This too, like I can say, okay, I can work on my posture, but like. I know that's not gonna solve everything going on. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, just really, really like setting boundaries and, and with people in my life too, you know, like when you have a headache and their first thing they say is, oh, just drink some water. I'm like, you know that, that's not what's going on here. Right. I'm sure drinking water couldn't hurt, but like. It's not gonna make this whole situation go away.

Nikita's voice: 24:35

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Totally love that. Okay, so we kind of went off there, but that's important because I feel like we all, I don't think we hear enough about those kind of conversations about that paradigm of that tug of war. And I love that you said like you just accept that the function, like figuring out the health insurance piece is just gonna be difficult. Something that I've started incorporating this year is something I call the heal me Fun. And that can look like, obviously the things you do to take care of yourself physically, that. Holistic things, but also like the financial skill of saving for these things that even if you had insurance, it's not gonna cover it all. Like getting into that mindset. So I love that. That's kind of like what you were sha sharing about the business aspect of things, of moving into like, I just have to budget for it. This is just what I have to do. Mm-hmm. Instead of, but we can only do that if we like accept it. Like we have to, like, we can't just hope that it doesn't happen.

25:35

You

Nikita's voice: 25:35

gotta plan for it. You gotta plan it to the best of your ability. And so that's one way that you can do that. So I love that to hear that, like that was kind of your focus. When it comes to something else you said about like building a team, because there are gonna be times that you can't do the work. How have you managed that for yourself? Like do you have systems? How did you build this team? How did you train this team? Like what did that look like for you? I.

Liz Carmines: 26:04

Yeah, this is like, it's not really a. What did it look like? It's like, what is it looking like? Because I'm really in the middle of this. Mm-hmm. But, so I've, I've actually always had another freelancer working with me. She's my sister. And so that's been really helpful because we have this relationship where like, I kind of can be like, Hey, can you jump in and work on this? Mm-hmm. And she, we have this understanding, right. And she's been such a blessing and help to me, the one thing that the, the ne, the very next hire that I need was a virtual assistant. And I think that that is going to, has already helped and will continue to help. She's really helped me set up a project management system so that everything is clear, like the due dates and the files, and where to find things. And I think that's gonna be one of the biggest pieces so that I can say to anyone on my team. Hey, this is what I want you to work on. Everything is right here. It's documented. I don't need to like pull links from this place and that folder and all of those things. It's already there. The other thing I think is gonna be really helpful is when I get her to take over my email because sometimes. Email can be, especially when I'm in the middle of like a brain fog mm-hmm. Responding to emails. I don't know why it takes me three seconds, but it's one of the most draining things. No, it, it's

Nikita's voice: 27:17

totally the most draining thing ever. It

Liz Carmines: 27:19

really is. And so for me it's like identifying what are those things that drain me. And you know, if I'm having kind of an off day, what I wanna be working on are the things that fuel me. Mm-hmm. Making videos or editing camera graphics, so things that are just fun and creative and enjoyable and I can just put on a movie in the background and mm-hmm. You know, trying to figure out what are those things that I can give to somebody else to take off my plate that really I can't do when I'm not feeling well. Versus what are the things that light me up that like I want to hold for myself, like I want to create the time and space to do them. So that's kind of how I'm trying to think about planning and structuring a team. Mm-hmm. It kind of like to support me in a way. And, and also, you know, there will be evolutions of that where like people have different responsibilities, but right now what I'm focusing on are, are those things.

Nikita's voice: 28:08

Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. And absolutely. Having support. I just, first of all, I don't understand how anybody does it without like, and I get especially, and I think for those of folks that are listening who are like, they are in a corporate job and they are about to transition, I actually think if there's anything that I would've done differently, I would've probably did that. I would've hired a VA from the get go from that standpoint before I was like folded into my business because man, the amount of. Peace of mind. I feel like just from, as a chronic illness warrior, it helps you so much to have a peace of mind that even if you can't, client delivery, client communication, client, whatever, that you literally all have to do is like text or email this other person and they go into like fix it mode and you don't have to. Mm-hmm. Alone, to me is just like. Peace of mind that I will pay for. Yeah, 100%.

Liz Carmines: 29:11

Yeah.

Nikita's voice: 29:11

Right. And so I think a lot of times we think about having a VA or having support our business as something that you need when you're making KU money and like you're making like the seven and six figures and everything's jazzy and money's just rolling in. But I feel like for chronic illness warriors, we have to almost. Not almost, we have to like consider that as a cost of business.

29:36

Mm-hmm.

Nikita's voice: 29:37

And also as an ROI, and also what I like to call an ROE into our business, our return of investment and a return of energy. Mm-hmm. When you have a va. Mm-hmm. Because I just, I can't, I mean, even when I was broke, like, broke, broke in my business, I found somebody on fiber, like you can find somebody. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, so I think the idea of like you can't have help until you're at a certain amount of income level is usually why I think businesses fail within the first one or two, three years. And if you're living with chronic illness, that's even, I think that's the other reason why it happens. I.

Liz Carmines: 30:11

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it, it's definitely scary hiring. Mm-hmm. Because you feel like you're taking on this big responsibility. You know, if I can't pay myself one month in my business or pay myself the full amount I wanted to or whatever, it's like I can handle that, right? Mm-hmm. But if I can't pay somebody else, that's just not okay. Mm-hmm. And so. It felt scary. It felt overwhelming, but it is one of those things that like once I just did it, she took so much off my plate and, and this applies I think, to any entrepreneur, but like you said, especially people with chronic illness that. That has just taken so much off of my plate and freed me up to focus so much on the things that I wanna be doing. And, you know, I've been able to kind of start taking every other Friday off. And it's just those little things that like, have felt so good and, and now I'm not scared anymore. Mm. I'm like, oh, I can sustain this. Like, I believe in my ability to create the revenue I need to create. To sustain this employment for this person. Yeah. And, and now like, I've kind of started hiring a few more freelancers because once I've just hired the first one, I don't really count my sister because she's been with me since the very beginning. And like we just, I, it's just funny how she got involved, but this was like the first real hire for me. And once I got past that and worked with her for like a month, I was like, okay, what's my next one? Because it's just mm-hmm. It, it does really free me up to just, and the other thing is like. I need to create more time to be CEO of my business, right? Mm-hmm. Like, no, those are the things no one is doing for me. Mm-hmm. And, and I really need to create that time to build the business and strategize and, you know, plan and do all the implementation then, and, and that's how it's gonna have to happen at this point.

Nikita's voice: 31:53

Yeah. I love that. And I also, I wonder, do you, are you guys working on, like, putting some systems in place so that. Like even if you can't deliver on the things that you enjoy doing, that there is a process that they can kind of follow. Because I also think that's the other thing that happens for most of us living with, I think entrepreneurs starting out in general, but I specifically think this is more tailored to those living with chronic illnesses that we think some of these things can wait. And in reality, our flareups don't wait. The pain doesn't wait. The doctor's appointments and all these things don't wait. So having these things in place, like a VA in systems now is what literally is our safety net. Yeah. So like how has that looked like for you? I.

Liz Carmines: 32:37

Yeah, we're, we're working on getting SOPs created, so that'll be helpful. And the other thing is, it just, I mean, it feels good knowing that between my sister and my va, that two people know everything that's going on in the business. Mm-hmm. Like, even if it's not relevant to them, like they're, they're not needing to work on it necessarily right now. I like to inform them like, okay, I have this new client, we're working on this. It's just kind of me and the client, but like, you know, maybe it's coaching or consulting, but I still want other people to kind of know. And again, we're kind of like working to figure out what are those systems, but it just helps for me to know that they're clued in. There's, I have created a client contacts document that my VA has access to. So if I were to send her the like. SOS message of whatever kind. Mm-hmm. She has contact with all of my clients that she could communicate with them on my behalf. That I think is really helpful. Yeah. And, and knowing my sister on like the, the deliverable side mm-hmm. She knows the systems and processes and she knows all the new freelancers I'm hiring. Mm-hmm. So if, again, same thing on her side. If, if I. Had the SOS message to her, I could say, okay, you know, all the freelancers, these are the deliverables that need to get done with clients. Please manage that. And she, she just knows because she's been doing it with me. Mm-hmm. So those are kind of how we're, we're managing it right now. Yeah. And I actually have reached out to a, a system strategist from the Chronic West Collective that I'm hoping to kind of chat with her more about like high level systems, because I do think with growth, that's gotta be top priority.

Nikita's voice: 34:10

Yeah, yeah. Automations and all of that. Jazz is. The way to go, especially if you just need to click a button and you need to go to sleep. Yeah. Like that's how I feel about it. Like, can I click a button and then go NN I'm happy.

34:27

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Nikita's voice: 35:27

So just a, a thing for you, what does like being like when pain happens for you in your business now versus like when you were working in your, like the nine to five, what is different?

Liz Carmines: 35:44

Hmm. I would say the first thing, like I said before, is like a lot less guilt and a lot less pushing through. Like last week I had a day, I mean last week I had a week, but, but I had one day where I just woke up in the morning and I was like, my body doesn't feel right. My brain doesn not feel right. And I just did, I didn't do anything. Mm-hmm. I opened up my email to make sure that there wasn't anything immediate that I needed to get back to anyone on. I looked through the email, I thought, okay, nothing's urgent, and I shut the laptop and I just laid down for like the first half of the day. And the fact that I didn't have to feel any guilt about that, I didn't feel like I had to message anyone and check in or you know, whatever felt so good. Sometimes there are consequences to that where maybe then, okay, I have to say I'm gonna work late another night to make up for it because let's be real, like we're business owners and like we have work to get done and I can't just take off all the time, but. But I'm okay with that. Like that's a, that's a trade off I'm happy to make because it means that when my body's not feeling good, like I think I ended up napping. And then I said, I called one of my friends from home and we, I walked for an hour on the phone with a friend and that just filled my cup on that day when I was not feeling good. And I moved my body a little bit and. And then I was able to like, sit down at my computer after dinner and just get some of those things done that I was supposed to do that day. Yeah. That's what's different. Yeah. And, and it's a trade off. I'm happy to, to have.

Nikita's voice: 37:09

Yeah. And that's the thing, right? I don't even like to call those trade-offs. I called them perks. Yeah, for sure. Because like, I can't, I couldn't do that in a nine to five, like. Like, I couldn't be like, Hey guys, I'm just gonna nap for today. And then like, I'll see you guys at six. Oh, I'm sorry you guys won't be there. I guess I'll still come into the office and still work at this desk. Like I couldn't do that. And so to me like that's the privilege, that's the perks of, that's the benefits. Like to me, those are the benefits of being an entrepreneur and being like. Yeah, I got to sleep in today and I didn't do anything, but you know what? I woke up and I had time at nine o'clock and I did it like mm-hmm. That's awesome. Yeah, and I, I definitely think it comes from just being able to not make it mean that we are not enough, it's just that we did it different.

Liz Carmines: 38:04

Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean. I think people who don't live with chronic conditions probably don't really get it. Mm-hmm. But it's just one of those things like I, I can't. I don't want to feel bad about feeling bad, right? Mm-hmm. Like it, it's just, this is what it is. This is the reality. And if I tried to sit there at my computer right now and do this work, I would probably end up staring at a screen for three hours and getting nothing done, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, because like my, my mind and my body are not there. They're not. Capable in that moment to, to do it. And so for me, it's like, I, I can't, I'm, I'm not gonna feel bad about that because it's just not productive, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's just not a good use of time in when I could have just been doing the things to get me to feel better. Yeah. Instead, I just forced, tried to force myself and then it's like a lose lose situation.

Nikita's voice: 38:57

Yeah. So what are some things that, like if someone is like listening right now who's like, okay, I. All right, Liz, and y'all talking about me transitioning from full-time job to my own business. What are some of the things that you did that helped you make that as, as uns scary but still scary enough? Like what was some of the things that you did? Mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 39:19

Well, the, the one that everyone says is like, have savings. Mm-hmm. I think that that obviously really, really helps for me. Also, the fact that I already had clients when I quit my full-time job and knew I wasn't going from like a full-time salary to$0. Mm-hmm. Like knowing that even though the, the amount of clients wasn't what I wanted in terms of a business. It was something to start with that was super helpful. So I would say like if there's any way you can start doing it on the side at a small scale, just it'll give you that con, that confidence too of like, okay, I have proof of con concept. I know I can get clients, or I know I can sell this product or whatever. So you don't jump feeling like, can I even make this work?

40:04

Mm-hmm.

Liz Carmines: 40:04

That would be one. I would also say that really figuring out your offer. Really, really helps because for me, I used the time while I was in my full-time job to like do all of the market research, to do the pro the pricing research and come up with my pricing, come up with like those, you know, my portfolio that I send to future potential clients and things. This way, when I quit my full-time job, I was able to just go and start trying to get new clients instead of spending a month doing all of those things. To me that was just, you know, I could sit down one evening after work and spend three hours on this, on this portfolio and just check it off the list. That was the other thing I did, was made a, a, a checklist of things that needed to get done in order for me to feel ready to leave the, the job and then things that I wanted to get done. Yeah. So this way, when I reached that point of burnout, I looked at my list and I said. Okay. I'm in like a pretty good spot. Maybe I didn't get all the things I wanted to get done, but I needed, I, I got everything on the need to-do list done. Mm-hmm. And, and that just felt, felt good knowing that like, I had kind of had a plan and I didn't get the full way through the plan, but I had laid enough groundwork to feel ready.

Nikita's voice: 41:23

Yeah.

Liz Carmines: 41:24

And the other thing that did really help me in the transition, and this is not an option to everyone, but when I quit my full-time job, they actually asked me, I put in my two weeks notice and they actually asked me to stay. So I ended up having six weeks. I transitioned to part-time at a a certain point. That was just a huge, huge help and. I went into that process thinking that they were not like, I thought they were gonna be like, we're done with you. But really they loved that I was able to offer them that time because my last day was the new social media manager's first day. So I got to sit down with the new social media manager and onboard her a little bit and say, this is where I keep things and. Instead of them having this gap. So if you have a full-time job, you can always just offer that. Like, I'm willing to stay on and help with the transition. I even interviewed my replacements. Mm. Like I was fully immersed in that process because I stayed on and I think they really enjoyed that. So if you can ask your job, Hey, I would love to have like a slow off board. Mm-hmm. Then that can be a huge help financially too.

Nikita's voice: 42:25

Yeah. Love that. Yeah. You know, we, I love that you said that.'cause sometimes we're, we're like just operating in the fear of what's gonna happen when we leave versus in the, like to me that's more like I. What's possible if you did leave in the way that felt the greatest to you? I mean now if you're trying to leave the job'cause you absolutely hate the place and they're crazy, then that's different. But if it's like a, a, a, a environment that you may have have been with for a while or that you do enjoy or you wanna keep that bridge unburned like Yeah. Then I love that, that you shared that as well.

Liz Carmines: 43:02

Yeah. For me, part of it too was once I had told them. It felt so much better. Like it released me.'cause I kind of felt like my brain was in two different places. I felt a little like scared at work because I was like, I have this other thing, and I was like scared. I didn't wanna talk to anyone about it. But once they knew and they were also excited for me, like I was fortunate. Like I said, I had a really good work environment that like. It just felt good then that I could actually talk to them about it too. And it again, like you said, it's not right in every scenario, right? But it was a win-win on both sides that I got more time of getting paid and they got more time for the transition. And so, yeah. I went into that fully, like imagining in my head the, the thing where they're like, just go empty out your desk. You're done. You know? I don't know why like you, we go to the worst case scenario. Yeah. But like, yeah, thinking about what's the best case scenario and just like, why not? Why not ask, why not put it out there?

Nikita's voice: 43:55

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love that so much. How did you prepare? What were some things you prepared as far as like living with the chronic pain and the fatigue and the brain fog to prep for that as well?

Liz Carmines: 44:07

That's a good question. So it actually was really kind of unexpected because I had actually gotten to a really good place with my care routine. I had found an amazing chiropractor who was more than a chiropractor. He did like soft tissue work and all those things, and so I was, I was in a really, really good place actually with this regimen that I had with him. Then a month after I quit my job, my long-term boyfriend got a new job in a different state. So we ended up moving out of state like a couple months later and uh, wow. It actually made it a lot, a little bit harder. The stress, right? Because stress is one of my huge pain triggers. So the stress of this kind of quick move that we were kind of planning for, but we were not planning for it to happen as soon as it did, that was a huge trigger. And also just losing this chiropractor, I. That was helping me so much and got me to like such a great place was really, really hard for me. I was so devastated. Mm-hmm. And so that actually was really hard because when you move to a new place, it's hard to find those people again. Yeah. So the way I prepared was by like getting myself to a good baseline where I was having less pain days. Right. I was having less flareups that didn't stay that way because of life. But that's the best thing I would recommend is just like. This is gonna be leaving and starting a business is gonna be so stressful. Like, it was so stressful for me. And so the best thing I could do for myself was just get myself to the best place possible so that when that stress ramped up, I already had, my care provider I knew was really helping me, that I could book an appointment or like I had this routine and I, I was already in a good place. So that's what I would do. It didn't work out.

Nikita's voice: 45:51

That's what I attend to. Well, you prepare. Well, you can prepare for it. I mean, you can prepare for a lot of things and things, you know, shift. I think one of the things I. I love that you did. It was just like, okay, I know I'm going, you anticipated that this is gonna be a little bit more stressful of a time, and so you anticipated like, I need to ramp up this, I need to do that. And I definitely think everyone, that's just something to keep in mind too is like maybe it's not like you may not, maybe you are gonna wanna ramp up some more self care, some more. Mindset work as well. So more physical activity, movement and things like that. And getting your body to a place that's almost like when it's in that state, if you're gonna go through something like that, that it's not pulling from nothing. Mm-hmm. It's a storehouse of things you have there that it can pull from. Yeah. And that you can, you can kind of relax into at the same time. So, such good points there. So tell us a little bit about your business. You as a social media manager, what does that look like for you operating in that living with chronic illness?

Liz Carmines: 47:00

Yeah, so I, my business is social with purpose. We do social media management, we do social media content creation, and we do like training and consulting. And so it's kind of interesting. One of the things is like my business is very built around social media management, and I prioritize working with nonprofit organizations and purpose-driven businesses. And it's like I have this proven model where like the majority of my clients are in this space, but it's also trying to figure out like. How to diversify a little bit and how to get clients in different ways, like in more of a consulting capacity or in more of like the content creation capacity. Because I think everyone wants a social media manager to like just jump in and do it for them and, and, and that's just, it works really well. But definitely I'm, in terms of business, just wanting to like, think a little bit further in terms of like, how do we diversify in terms of like, you know, just my experience. It, I think it's just kind of. The reason it works really well for me is I don't have to be always on for my clients. It's based on deliverables. It's based on once a month I deliver content for them to review. We have these meetings and check-ins and things, but the vast majority I can do whenever I want. And that's one thing that really helps me because it doesn't require me to be always on. I'm not logging hours for clients, you know, I'm not online at certain time, I'm just. I know each month what I have to get done for these clients and when I get them done and how I get them done is kind of up to me. So that's one of the reasons I think it works really well for me and with my health because like I said, you know, I have that flexibility. If, if I'm not feeling good one day, I don't have to push through. I, I. Try to plan it so that I'm working on things a little before when they're due, which, let's be real, we're business owners. It doesn't always happen.'cause we get, you know, when you're building a business, there's a lot of components and it can be a, it can be a hustle sometimes, honestly, like to, to, I don't want it to be that way and I'm actively working against that. But there are some sometimes where you just find yourself with more work than you anticipated on your plate. Mm-hmm. Or you didn't plan things right or whatever. But for the most part. It means I can work ahead and get things done and not have to stress.

Nikita's voice: 49:12

Mm.

Liz Carmines: 49:13

Because I don't have to be on for them at any particular time.

Nikita's voice: 49:16

Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Love that. Yeah. Build a business that works around your life. That's what I say. Mm-hmm. I personally think from a standpoint of like the type of business that works the best is where you are in the most control. The driver's seat of. What and when you need to do something and you not always rely on other people for that to happen, and so because then you give yourself that flexibility and freedom, this is why I will probably die saying coaching and consulting are the best ways to do that, but I. If you are going to have a service-based business, like be sure you are designing it so that it gives you more flexibility and freedom in that way, and you're not like being handicapped or chained to these clients in a certain way. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think sometimes I. When I see service providers with chronic illness, I feel like they overcomplicate the delivery. Mm-hmm. And because when they overcomplicate the delivery, they put themselves in this space of having to be more on than they need to be. Right. And so that creates that same kind of experience that you had in a nine to five where you're like, oh no, I feel guilty, and like, let's not recreate the thing we tried to get away from. Yeah. So it sounds like you have been really designing your business in that way as well.

Liz Carmines: 50:33

Yeah, I've tried because I think it just works for me personality wise too, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and I want to be available to my clients, right? If they have questions or like, you know, if they have something quick that like comes up, you know, I wanna be available to them. But I also have structured it in a way where it's like. It's around my preferences. Mm-hmm. Of when and how and where it gets done. And that I don't need to be like waiting for them to like text me on a Tuesday morning so we can get this post out. Like that's not really the way I've built it. There are once in a while, exceptions that we make, but for the most part it's like. Oh, you send us something late that you want posted. Okay, it's gonna go out when we get it to go out and we try to prioritize it and get it done, but it's like, I can't guarantee this is gonna happen today. Right. Yeah. Boundaries like trying to set those boundaries for sure. It's hard. It can be really hard, especially when you're newer in business. And this is something that from the business owner mindset perspective, I struggled with a little bit was. I think when you work a full-time job and you get hired, you have that feeling of being like, oh, they trust me. Like they've, they've placed this title on me that they believe in me, and so I can be good at what I do and you know, I can believe in myself. And when you start your own business, you're basically placing that title on yourself and saying, Hey guys, I do this thing and I'm pretty good at it. And that was kind of hard for me at first. I was very, mm. Intimidated. And I've really struggled with that concept of like under promise and overdeliver where I put so much pressure on myself to always overdeliver. So there was a time where I did feel like I had to like respond immediately. I had to like be so on top of things. I had to be going above and beyond in every single way. Yeah. But I am sort of shifting that mindset and saying like, you know what? Like I can't operate that way'cause that is another road to burnout that I don't wanna be on And mm-hmm. It's part of it is confidence. Part of it is just lessons learned about boundaries. But I definitely made some mistakes in saying yes to too many things at first, or being too available to the point where they, you kind of like get taken advantage of or just, you know, you didn't set the right boundaries. And that's something I've had to learn. But fortunately I've, I've not had any challenges with, like, pushback from clients either. Yeah. I think I've, I've found clients that really respect my boundaries and, and when I set them, so I am super happy with that.

Nikita's voice: 52:52

Yeah. And you work in a niche that you wanna work in. Like you work with people that you really like. Mm-hmm. And you really are like down for their mission and, and their values. Like you align in that way. And I think I. Again, this is something else I will always say is like, if you're living with chronic illness, we don't have time to be dealing with people who are not in alignment with

Liz Carmines: 53:12

Yeah.

Nikita's voice: 53:13

What we want or how we wanna help the people in the world. So like why waste our time with that?

Liz Carmines: 53:18

Mm-hmm. And that can be a double-edged sword.'cause I think, especially when I work with nonprofits, I would always feel the need to like really over deliver. Yeah. And really give a lot because they're nonprofit organizations. Mm-hmm. And I still do, like, I think for every client, you know, I think I still try to be giving and like do those things to surprise and delight that as they say. But I, I think I've also had to release that, like feeling that because they're a nonprofit, I have to make sure that I'm doing so much more for them because now I just try to think about it of like, they're all my clients, whether they're a for-profit business or they're a nonprofit organization. And I shouldn't be treating anyone any differently, and I've just had to kind of like release that, that like, I don't know what it is, like the volunteerism, guilt or something like that.

Nikita's voice: 54:04

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny. Yeah. I mean in and in reality, nonprofit versus profit, I. It's a tax difference and for the most part. Mm-hmm. Um, and it is still a business. Like I always joke with some of my friends who are nonprofits and they're like, y'all big nonprofits, is that we don't make money. Like we're not trying to make money. It's like, no, we have to make money.

Liz Carmines: 54:26

For sure. And I think that this is just something that I hear like a lot, not just in the social media space, like, you know, I feel bad. Like, oh, if the client says that this is like. A little bit outside of their budget, like, oh, I feel bad. I wanna make sure they're getting the most. But the thing that I've also had to remember is like that is, that has nothing to do with me. Like, I don't need to feel bad. This is business. And like, if they can't afford it, then they, they can't afford it. But I don't need to like. Give discounts because they're a brand new business. Yeah. Or, you know, do all of those things. Like, this is what I offer and if I'm sorry, I feel like I, I almost said it. You know, I'm sorry. If you can't afford it, we can find other ways to work together. Right. Or I can refer you to someone that maybe has like a different price point, but like, I can't feel bad because I've built my business this way and this is what works for me and this is how I value my work and all of those things.

Nikita's voice: 55:14

Yeah. So much. That's a whole nother, a whole nother episode, right. Just on. Not feeling bad about people not affording our prices. One of the things that have helped me in this thought is. Like, I create content that's free. I, I do things like this, like the podcast I enter, you know, I'm in networking groups. I'm like, I go do speaking engagements and things like that, that are relatively usually free to the audience or very low accessible for people to do. And then like, my services are my services, right? So I'm not doing everything at this high and whatever, and nobody can. You know, learn or be helped. And so that's helped me a lot and around like my prices and my prices and why I'm not sorry that that's my prices.

55:59

Yeah.

Nikita's voice: 55:59

And, and it definitely helps me to think about it when I think about, well, my Heal Me fund that I have is like, I. Literally, I can't help anyone if I can't heal myself. So yeah. I gotta, I gotta make money too.

Liz Carmines: 56:11

Yeah, for sure. I, that's a really good, I love that you talk about that, like offering things for, for free that are more like accessible and things, because it is like, I. You can feel good knowing that like you're contributing and, and you have that like servant heart kind of Yeah. But you also on the business side of things are like, this is what it is and I have to be able to earn this much and I'll, you know Yeah. Value it appropriately.

Nikita's voice: 56:34

Yeah. So tell us how we can connect with you if anyone who is in those niches and maybe looking for a, not a social media manager or consultant for social media, how can they find you?

Liz Carmines: 56:48

Yeah, so my website is www.socialwithpurpose.co. There's no M at the end, it's just.co. I'm on Instagram at Social with Purpose. You can find me on LinkedIn, Liz Carmines. Those are probably the best places.

Nikita's voice: 57:03

That's awesome. Can I just say something real funny real quick? Yeah. So in my out, out like outro, I say ww.pro to thrive.com and I, I got so much flack from my husband and some of my friends, they're like, why do you say www dot? Like, why don't you just say the name and then.com or.co or whatever. I'm like, I don't know, but I feel like that's what I'm supposed to say. It's not the full website. And they're like, nobody says that. And I'm like. Aha. Listen, it, I'm well known.

Liz Carmines: 57:33

I, I'm thinking about like the, the wide demographic of potential audiences that are listening and they say never assume anything. I don't wanna assume anyone knows, so. Exactly. I'm with you, girl. I don't think it hurt it as I was saying, I was like, this is a little long, but like, you know, it, I, I just think you don't wanna. Assume anyone knows what you're talking about. I

Nikita's voice: 57:51

love it. I feel the same way. So there you go. Anyway, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for being on and sharing your story, and I hope that this really serves someone who might be in the same little boat transitioning or thinking about doing this as well. Anything you want to leave before we hop off?

Liz Carmines: 58:10

I guess I would just say like. I'm really passionate about people who really think that this is their path, just going for it. And there's gonna be a lot of fear. There's gonna be a lot of uncertainty, potentially imposter syndrome, comparison, whatever it is. And those are all things that you can and will overcome with practice and. Just, those are the things that can stop us in our tracks sometimes and make us quit or just like panic and get a, a new job or whatever. But, you know, if this is like in your heart and you really wanna do it and you believe it, then those are the things you can work through. Like, you can always be working through your fear and overcoming mindset and all of those things, but just don't let that stop you from, from doing the thing, because you know. Seize the day.

Nikita's voice: 58:58

Yes. I love that. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah,

Liz Carmines: 59:00

thank you so much for having me. It was such a great conversation and I love listening to your podcast, so,

Nikita's voice: 59:05

Aw, thanks for being on. I appreciate you. Thank you. That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness. If you would like to start and grow an online coaching business with me. Head to the show notes to click a link to book a sales call and learn how to make money with chronic illness. You can also check out our website at ww dot crafted to thrive.com. For this episode's, show notes and join our email list to get exclusive content where I coach you on how to chronically grow a profitable business while living with chronic illness. Until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.